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Gee, Thanks HP...Your Support Stinks!

Wednesday, 19 December 2007

Update 3: I am now able to boot using no special commands like noapic with the newest nVidia beta driver (169.07). The driver itself has problems as it keeps me from using the console as it is extremely fuzzy, and moves around too...it also seems to prevent me from being able to properly reboot or shutdown.

Update 2: Many people think I don't have linux running on the laptop...I do, I am just not satisfied, as lapic is not functional, thus I can't save power and have more speed as a result of using High Res Timers...Other than that, it is a great laptop...except for the fact they wanted to charge me $700 to put in a new lcd...I did that myself for $200....see that rant here.

Update 1: Oh...and to HP: I apologize if I came across as trying to defame HP, or trying to imply that the quality is not good. I was more or less going on trying to get a good response from the geek community in order to fix my problem...which hundreds, possibly thousands of other folks have. I love my laptop, I just dislike having to disable apic at boot...I found a fix for the lapic bug, though, which turned out to be the bios, but the fix disables a bios setting that is hidden. So I can use HR timers and dynticks now...I apologize to HP for any misunderstanding. There are employees at HP that care, and I have been in contact with a couple of them..contrary to popular belief, they actually care about getting Linux on the HP lines.

=========================

Well, I am sick of not being able to use High Resolution timers, which my hardware supports on my HP dv9205us laptop, but the BIOS has bugs, and will not allow me to, because it won't boot Linux without the "noapic" in grub's boot parameters. This feature would greatly speed my computer up, and use it's full potential...It is really nice of HP to use the "the customer is always right" mentality, especially when I contacted them and asked nicely if they could fix the bios and re-release it...here's what I got back:

Hello Matt,

Thank you for contacting HP Total Care.

From your message, I understand that you would like to have a fix for BIOS compatible with the Linux Operating System.

I am very sorry to inform you that, HP supports only the preinstalled Operating System. HP is unable to guarantee how Linux Operating system will function on a PC not originally designed and/or tested for this new operating system.

Matt, HP does not recommend installing of Linux Operating System, it could not guarantee a high level of compatibility for all basic hardware and software components of the PCs. PC device drivers (including graphics, BIOS, chipset, etc) for some PC components may simply not be available. I regret for the inconvinence caused. HP does not support Linux on any models of HP Pavilion PCs at this time. Information about Linux can be located at the following Web site:

http://h10018.www1.hp.com/wwsolutions/linux/index.html

HP pre-installed the latest version of the Microsoft Windows operating System (98, Me, XP or Vista) on your Pavilion PC. The Warranty on your Pavilion system does not apply to software not provided by HP and does not apply to defects or errors in hardware resulting from software not provided by HP with that system. Please review your PC documentation to identify the supported operating system.

I once again apologize for any inconvenience that this information has caused you.

If you need further assistance, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist you further.

Sincerely,

HP Goon

Well...wasn't that nice of them, to basically tell me to screw off in a friendly way?...Anyone good at bios hacking? How about somebody mods this bios for me and fixes it, and perhaps unlocks all of the "hidden" features within while you're at it? You'd have to find a way to test it other than using my computer, but emulators are available... admin@mattparnell.com

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Ian	\|65.160.148.xxx \|2007-12-19 12:54:49

What did you expect? Why should they spend their time and money making sure that
their systems are compatible with everyone and their uncles software. It doesn't
make sense. I like linux, I'm not a hater. I'm just realistic. It's a bit silly
to say paint HP in such a light.

Why are you installing Linux on a retail
system anyways? You've already paid for Vista, might as well use it.

Gates

|86.162.211.xxx |2007-12-19 13:04:37

Blogging it is the right thing to do. If enough of their customers make noise,
hopefully they will realise that getting a reputation for creating
Linux-incompatible hardware will seriously impact their server business.

I
hope the various podcasats pick this up - HP has had reps on a few of the
podcasts in the past waxing lyrical about their Linux-friendly stance, so it
might be a way to notify their PR department that this is crappy service.

balazsbela

|79.114.226.xxx |2007-12-19 13:06:28

"tested for this new operating system"

New ??? What have they been
doing since 1991, sleeping ?

ME	\|12.38.196.xxx \|2007-12-19 13:12:20

Matt... in your face. lol

Scott

|65.41.81.xxx |2007-12-19 13:13:41

Yeah, Ian has a point. Why should you have the right to do what you want with
your computer just because you "paid" for it. Suffer the Vista, monkey's
uncle.

But seriously, I've read about replacing a machine's BIOS with an open
source alternative (tinyBIOS? OpenBIOS?) Not sure the details, if it'll help
you, etc. but hopefully a lead for you to follow. And if it doesn't work at
least they'll probably discuss your suggestions as opposed to HP's caveat emptor
approach.

George

|164.55.254.xxx |2007-12-19 13:19:43

Don't bother. Tell him that when running Vista that high-res timers are not
supported, and since this is a feature of the BIOS and modern computers that you
want it fixed, since it's obviously broken. Take out the Linux part of the
equation - it should still be broken in Vista or XP, right?

Brian

|71.198.67.xxx |2007-12-19 13:36:09

That response is a canned response from India. Whoever wrote it hasn't got a
clue about anything.

Caleb

|67.107.138.xxx |2007-12-19 13:36:48

it's not a matter of adding support for other operating systems, it's a matter
of fixing a problem that shouldn't have been there to begin with and generating
good PR. I've been fighting with hp (compaq) for a year now with their support
system, and will not purchase another hp.

Richard

|81.146.37.xxx |2007-12-19 13:43:43

Sorry dude, you can't expect them to correct that for you for free if it's a
problem in Linux and not in Windows. I'm writing this on a Packard Bell running
Ubuntu and I spent a good few hours getting the unsupported modem to work with
it -- but I didn't go whinging about the lack of support because I realised it
was my choice to install Linux and so I had to deal with the problems it
generated...

Obelisk

|67.52.10.xxx |2007-12-19 13:45:29

One should research his/her hardware before purchasing to see if it supports the
application it will be used for. It sounds like HP doesn't support Linux on
their (low end) Pavilions. I'm sure HP has a model that Linux works on with
high resolution timers, or maybe there is a version of Linux that will support
the Pavilion.

ThePlaz

|72.81.39.xxx |2007-12-19 13:58:19

@Scott: Sure you can do what with you want with it - but don't ask for
support for it. If you buy a car, you can change the engine - just don't go
back to the manufacturer and ask for them to fix it under warranty.

However,
in this case, I do think HP should fix BIOS problems since that is a problem
with what they shipped to you. On the other hand if you replaced the engine, and
the ignition no longer works - whose fault is that? What if you couldn't fix it
or replace it? (as in a 3rd party BIOS)

~Michael http://theplaz.com

MattL

|155.229.82.xxx |2007-12-19 14:00:57

If your problem is with one or more of the APICs on the system, there are a
couple places the problems could be, could you elaborate on the issue?

The
problem could be in the MP table. If that's the case it may be simple to deal
with on either the BIOS or the OS end. If there is missing information, such as
entries for the local APICs or IOAPICs, that would be a bit harder to deal with.
But IIRC, MS favors ACPI and will not use the MP table unless it has to.

Or
the issue could be with the ACPI tables, and there is plenty of info out there
concerning the creation of that spec and Linux thanks to the antitrust suit. But
I belive most of the issues are know so I would hope you can find some way to
deal witht he problem there.

Pat	\|131.215.45.xxx \|2007-12-19 14:14:16

> It's not a matter of adding support for other operating systems

Yes, it is.
There is no such thing as 100% compliant hardware or 100% compliant software.
The Pavilion is cheap, and it's cheap particularly because it's designed as a
unit, with the OS shipping with the computer. If you don't want to build your
own box or buy a box that is advertised as Linux compatible, you're betting that
the company will expand their support window for you out of the goodness of
their hearts.

You can probably run FreeBSD, or OpenSolaris, or Linux, or
whatever on just about anything, but unless you take the time before purchasing
to determine if the hardware is going to work 100% with whatever you want to
run, that's sort of your problem. I can't run Mandriva 2007 x86_64 on my Sun
Ultra 20 and get USB 2.0 support. I can using Solaris or XP 64 bit.

I don't
see that HP has a responsibility to fix anything here. You have a reasonabl...

Stephen

|64.52.69.xxx |2007-12-19 14:33:57

Sorry to hear of all the drama dude. I know that HP is a monkey's uncle to deal
with. I have Ubuntu installed on my Dell laptop and have been running it since
6.06 when the wireless card wasn't really supported so I know how you must feel
in terms of fustration. Unless a major number of people start complaining then
HP won't ever do anything about. I would suggest not buying anything from them
again and letting them know that.

bytheway

|72.8.96.xxx |2007-12-19 15:09:02

That seems funny as when my pavilion notebook was having functionality problems
(thanks to the bullcrap customer service solutions that only made things worse)
I had to send it in (it had XP at the time). When I got it back it came with a
non-functional Linux on it and a note saying I had violated the Waranty. They
eventually cleared things up and sent me a new computer, but they were the ones
that "tried" to install Linux

Lee	\|76.192.139.xxx \|2007-12-19 15:10:01

The difference in analogy to other products is that you have people that can
repair issues for mechanical problems. Autos for example, If I replace my engine
in my car, the dealership may not support it under warrantee now but they are
still willing to take my money on an hourly basis to help me fix the ignition.
There are many other mechanics outside the dealership to help also. There are
also public specifications and spare parts available to work with. And my
replacement engine was created by another company offering specifications. And,
there is a big difference between taking apart something bolted together and
deciphering chip programming.
If HP was configured to permit another bios to
be put in, or provided their bios source code or bios interaction
specifications, one could set up a bounty and have someone code a patch for you.
This is more like welding your engine together and no owners manual nor repair
manuals,...

ery3r5e

|154.20.191.xxx |2007-12-19 15:14:34

Next time buy a machine with Linux preloaded from one of the many companies that
provide this service. HP has always been unfriendly to Linux users (unless you
are a giant corporation, in which case they are eager for your business).

Dustin

|75.34.239.xxx |2007-12-19 15:47:40

HP has a list of vendor certified Linux-compatible laptops on its web
site:

http://h71028.www7.hp.com/enterprise/cach
e/569891-0-0-0-121.html

Your laptop came bundled with a version of Microsoft
Windows that HP is contractually obliged (through OEM agreements) to support.
They are not, however, obliged to offer support for any other operating
systems.

Since this feature works with Windows, it may not be a problem with
the BIOS. You may have a misconfiguration on your Linux system or the drivers
are not written to support your specific implementation of that feature.

You
failed to specific which distribution of Linux you are using. If it is one of
the major vendors, you could try paying them for support. They may coordinate
with HP to get a BIOS update or may have a software workaround or patch that
will address the issue without negatively impacting performance.

Buying a
consumer-grade laptop that is already ...

Jason

|68.196.247.xxx |2007-12-19 16:10:51

What a shame. I've had nothing but wonderful experience with HP's server support
under Linux. If only they'd support consumer hardware as well....

hentai_jeff

|72.190.46.xxx |2007-12-19 16:23:54

I make my living supporting HP notebooks and I need to say that there's a reason
we don't support Linux on our notebooks NOONE WHO USES IT CALLS US (cruse
controll for cool) I personaly use linux, even took an Ubuntu live CD and run it
on the exact same model the author is wining about when I'm bored between calls,
no problems like he's talking about, then again I'm not actually installing
Ubuntu on it for fear of being fired. another point is we don't make the BIOSes
for our notebooks, we buy the parts and make the computers just like everyone
else. our notebooks =! our server line. And yes BTW I would so much rather work
on our server line

gz	\|71.141.123.xxx \|2007-12-19 16:31:15

Yeah, it sucks, but oh well. So HP laptops don't let you use the high resolution
timer. They weren't designed for Linux. When you buy a laptop these days, you're
buying the finished product, including OS and all...they are by no means
required to cater to your every want. So, yes, it'd be nice, but don't go into
conniptions because it doesn't work.

Weaver

|218.111.56.xxx |2007-12-19 18:07:33

Actually I agree on HP's response. They are contractually and legally obligated
to only support you based on the terms of purchase of your machine. In this case
when you purchased your HP Pavillion you agreed to use the approved version of
Microsoft Vista (the provided OEM version) that came with the machine otherwise
your warranty is void.

By re-installing your HP Pavillion with a
"non-approved" operation system, you have technically voided the
warranty and HP is within their legal rights to NOT even offer any support to
your request, but yet they have taken time to respond to your email and point to
resources that *MIGHT* solve your problem.

HP has already done research and
quality control to ensure it works the provided operating system, if you wanted
your HP Pavillion to run linux on a HP machine, I think you should have done
some homework to find out which ones has the necessary drivers and support.
AFAIK...

Matt	\|75.136.223.xxx \|2007-12-19 18:24:50

:grin This is exactly what HP told me when I contacted them about the same thing
a while back. I eventually figured out how to make it all work, so what did I
do? I got rid of the "advanced OS that HP supports", went full pledged
Linux, and vowed never to buy anything HP again.

hentai_jeff

|72.190.46.xxx |2007-12-19 20:31:21

24. No it's nothing like that, it's more like changing the engine in a car you
bought and expecting them to fix the transmission you jury rigged to work under
warranty.

idiotonuni

|76.176.212.xxx |2007-12-19 21:19:22

wow thanks for the heads up. I was thinking about buying an HP Pavilion and
then making it dual boot with vista and Ubuntu, but i guess not, Sorry Hp you
hvae lost at least one sale due to this post.

DontLetFriendsBuyCrap

|69.142.139.xxx |2007-12-20 00:06:59

So here is the deal. After the merger of HP, Compaq and DEC , what was left was
3 PC manufactures making the same old craply home like desktops and laptops
under one name HP.

All of the consumer home line of PC's made by HP suck and
should not ever be purchased. The are made with the understanding that most of
the people who will buy them will run windows. They will use the computer for
about 3 to 5 years . At which the windows they have installed will be so messed
up with viruses, spyware, junk software, disk fragmentation. They will not be
able to tell a hardware issue from a software issue and they will buy another HP
when the computer stops working, thinking they have a worn out computer . Like
they have hole in their shoe they buy a new shoe and not fix the hole.

HP's
business line of desktops is and laptops is what you should look at for running
linux , bsd or any other os . HP even sells some of the desktops in...

Fool	\|59.100.147.xxx \|2007-12-20 05:34:05

They didn't say it would support Linux... Why should it? It was designed for
Vista why on earth would they have to support it under anything else?

Joe	\|209.159.61.xxx \|2007-12-20 12:31:50

You bought a home (consumer) model which only support the Windows environment.
Since HP offers several business class models that support Linux, why didn't you
purchase one of them? Talk about putting a round peg in a square hole. As for
the response from HP, I think you got a nice response considering what I would
have said to someone trying this stunt. BTW, don't try to install VMWare's ESX,
Novell NetWare or Sun Solaris either. They probably weren't tested either.

Brian

|64.142.49.xxx |2007-12-21 11:56:15

I have a DV9000Z which suffers from the same problem. There's a thread on
forums.gentoo.org which explains how to work around the apic problem. Its very
strange but has been working for me for a few weeks.

Using 2.6.23 kernel
enable nvidiafb (Device Drivers -> Graphics Support -> NVidia Frame Buffer
Support) as a module.

Also enable module auto loading so it loads
automatically on start up.

I still get boot hangs once in a while (its been a
few weeks), but once it hits that module apic and lapic work just fine for me.
The only problem I have now is my BCM4028 using NDISWrapper which hangs my
networking every two or three days.

It used to be that if you loaded
nvidiafb, then the nvidia binary X drivers wouldn't work, but that's not the
case with 2.6.23.

Good luck,

Brian

3.25 Copyright (C) 2007 Alain Georgette / Copyright (C) 2006 Frantisek Hliva. All rights reserved."